My frenchie attacked me!

lisamarie118 · Jun 26, 2018

Hey everyone sooo I had a situation happen today that resulted in me going to the ER (even though I hate doctors)
Anyhoo! My babies just got over KC 2 weeks ago (?) and transitioned almost fully over to a raw diet. They love their food and wait patiently as I prepare it. Henry is 9 months, Fred is 22 months & Gizzy Goo is 8 years & 4 months.
Henry was the first frenchie out of the 7 we’ve had that we fed separately from the adult dogs in a crate. He was extremely territorial over “his” food bowl and would attack any of the other dogs when they got close. I worked with him on this and he’s come such a long way.
Now onto Fred: he is the most gentle loving needy baby ever. He is very protective of me and constantly puts up with Henry torturing him. I got them these bones from chewy that came in the mail a few days ago. They are by castor & Pollux with the filling in the middle. Fred took all of them out in the yard today and burried them from his brothers. He guarded them and wouldn’t even let me get close!
Thennnn dinner time came

I got out their raw food to start preparing it and a fight broke out between Fred & Henry. I broke it up the first time and the second time I wasn’t so lucky. Fred got my finger and tried so hard to pull it off! I have 5 puncture wounds that weren’t able to be stitched up because of my acrylic nail on top. The doctor told me it would hurt even worse if he removed the nail so I just left with antibiotics and stuff to dress my finger. He said I’m gonna lose my nail and that I need to be very careful because of how deep it is and the amount of punctures.
I’m not concerned about that. What I am concerned about is Fred
Does anyone have any suggestions? Why is he starting to act this way at almost 2 years old? He was always a picky eater and didn’t care much for dog food up until I introduced raw.
Any and all comments are appreciated!!

Honeys Owners · Jun 27, 2018

So sorry this happened ! I would recommend getting X Ray as well to make sure your finger wasn't broken, as it might get locked in wrong position and never heal right otherwise, and a tetanus shot if it's been more than 10 years.

They are probably battling to see who can be alpha since they don't feel you are. I would keep the dogs separated when you are not around ( eg. caged) , feed them all their dinners and treats in separate areas (eg. cages), and start a program to make them feel you are the alpha. Practice " nothing in life is free" at all times Dog Training: Nothing in Life is Free : The Humane Society of the United States . Do not let them on bed or couch, when you walk them make sure they walk beside or behind you, you have to go out door first. Perhaps get some lessons from a dog trainer as well.

FroxerMom · Jun 27, 2018

Holy smokes. Sorry to read about your finger! That must have been scary. Hope it heals up for you soon.

When I first adopted Daphne, she attacked Sox within minutes of their meeting and he is 4 times her size. She growled if he came near her food or treats. Didn't want to share toys. I pretty much was sure I had an alpha on my hands and it wasn't going to be a problem because Sox was not challenging her. At some point Daphne stopped doing these things (I am chalking it up to this was her third country and at least third family she'd lived with in 12 months and she just needed time to feel settled and comfortable in her home). They never fight now, and share toys, but I don't chance it with marrow bones. I'm being proactive and will give them the bones while they are separated by rooms or a crate.

As for the raw food, mine can eat next to each other (trust me this was not even remotely possible when they first lived together). But their bowls are next to each other in the kitchen. Daphne inhales her food and is always done first. She hovers at a distance for scraps that Sox drops (he is a super messy eater). However, he rarely lets her have them. He gives a warning growl and she abides by it and will walk away which is SHOCKING to me given the dynamic when she first arrived. It is as if they switched roles.

I hope with time (and maybe a trainer - especially since blood was drawn) you can resolve the issues and live harmoniously again. Is it JUST over the raw food at feeding time? Perhaps something as simple as feeding them separately in different places and picking up and washing bowls directly afterwards would help restore the peace.

Keep the faith - things worked out at my house. I'd just say get a consistent routine going, one they can depend on and know what to expect. Take care of that finger. Separate when feeding and see if that helps. Maybe a trip to the vet to make sure nothing health-wise is causing sudden behavior changes?

Good luck. Please update when you can.

lisamarie118 · Jun 27, 2018

@honeyowners thank you so much for advice and link! I'll definitely look in to it

especially since I won't be able to work today!

lisamarie118 · Jun 27, 2018

[MENTION=3191]FroxerMom[/MENTION] I was hoping you'd chime in

ahh that is crazy to hear about Sox & Daphne and their role reversal- the same exact thing took place with Henry & Fred! It's as if they switched roles too!
I was trying to attach a video of Fred with that bone an hour before the attack happened. He growled at me and got in a defensive stance when I tried to play with him and his bone. They have never been this way over toys- especially Fred!!
He was very very upset when I got home from the ER. my mom went to the garage and brought in an old cage and put Fred in it and fed them after left. Everyone has been fine since.. I'll feed them in about 20 minutes and try putting them all separate

Frenchie Grrrl · Jun 27, 2018

Any recent vaccinations or other medications/preventives besides antibiotics? Are your males neutered?

So sorry this happened. I would definitely try to get a trainer in your home to help out.

GraciesMom · Jun 27, 2018

I have a similar problem with my 8 month old, Gracie. At about six months old, she started attacking me at meal times. She would lunge and bite at my feet. If I wasn't wearing shoes, she would have drawn blood. At first this occurred when I approached her bowl, but soon after she was attacking me when I was preparing her food. Ultimately she would guard the entire kitchen where she eats, even after finishing. Any attempt to enter, let alone pick up the empty bowl, would result in a frenzied attack. This from my sweet, affectionate little girl. I took her to a veterinary behaviorist. Then to a one-on-one trainer who practices positive reinforcement and has experience in this area. For health reasons, I was just starting her on raw (this was after the food aggression manifested). The behaviorist advised me to stop. She said the raw food would further stimulate the aggression because it is tastier and would be perceived by the dog as more "valuable." I did observe this because Gracie immediately became more reactive when she tasted the raw. This may be why Fred started the behavior at this point. You upped the ante with raw food and the filled bones. I would advise you to seek professional assistance with this problem. Dog on dog aggression might ease over time as others have suggested but you received a serious bite, indicating that Fred is out of control in the presence of resources he considers valuable. In the meantime do everything you can to prevent an attack from occurring, not just for your safety, but because it reinforces the aggressive behavior for the dog. And don't take it personally. Resource guarding is instinctive behavior, it made sense in the wild because food was a scarce resource that needed to be protected. Gracie can't get beyond her focus on food. I'm not sure she even recognizes what feet are in the moment -- they are just something coming towards her when food is involved. By the way, I am very impressed with our trainer and am hopeful we can come to a solution.

2bullymama · Jun 27, 2018

OUCH!!! Holy smokes... that is going to hurt for awhile I hope it heals up quick for you

As was mentioned, 'nothing in life is free', get them to know and accept you are alpha. Also, at age of 2, he is going through the 'teenage rebellion' phase which is where they try to assert alpha/push the limits. Using nothing in life is free should get him back on track, but until he is settled I would do as suggested and feed him separately and do not introduce any new toys/bones, he could begin resource guarding which is very difficult to break once it take hold.

lisamarie118 · Jun 27, 2018

nope! nothing. the only vaccine my dogs get are rabies. they've also been off the antibiotics for about a week now [MENTION=1392]Frenchie[/MENTION]grrrl

lisamarie118 · Jun 27, 2018

[MENTION=3106]GraciesMom[/MENTION] wow this was so informative! thank you for telling me your experience with such a similar situation. I fed them all their raw food in the morning around 9 and they just ate again at 5. absolutely no issues today! I did separate Fred @ dinner time because my mom came home and asked me to. When Henry was a puppy I found that separating him from the "pack" made his aggression worse so I don't want to get in to that habit with Fred.
It's heartbreaking to hear Gracie turning into a territorial aggressive dog while eating. I know from my own experience how hard breaking it is to see your sweet baby turn in to this gremlin!!! Thank God for people like us who are willing to work with our pets and not give them away because of a behavioral issue. I hate seeing people surrender their animals because they had a few behavioral issues that can be worked through. Best of luck to you! Lucky she has a good mama to help her get through this

How is Gracie doing now? Does the one-on-one trainer come weekly? Is it very expensive?

lisamarie118 · Jun 27, 2018

[MENTION=2]2bullymama[/MENTION] it hurts so bad! Fred's teeth are so uneven (like most frenchies teeth are) so I have about 5 bite marks! it's been bleeding still even 24 hours later but I'm just keeping it clean & elevating it when I can.
Thank you for replying I was hoping you would comment

I'll read that nothing in life is free training post now!

GraciesMom · Jun 27, 2018

Lisa, we are seeing the trainer once a week. We signed up for a four session package (an initial 90 minute session and three subsequent 45 minute sessions). The cost was $375. In researching various trainers in our area, the cost for a one-on-one session was generally in the range of $80 to $100, but it probably differs by location. We are looking at this as a consultation. We don't anticipate the need to continue this beyond four sessions. The trainer is training us as well as the dog so we know how to handle the situation. We may sign her up for group training sessions later but we need to concentrate fully on the aggression for now. Gracie is young to have this problem and for this reason the veterinary behaviorist believes it is probably genetic. We definitely have an uphill battle.

GraciesMom · Jun 27, 2018

Just a quick P.S. In answer to your other question I think Gracie is making progress. We've only been to the first session but the trainer gave us some good suggestions that are working well. Neither my husband nor I have been attacked recently (and that's a good day), especially since we are attempting to modify rather than manage the behavior.

2bullymama · Jun 27, 2018

lisamarie118 said:
[MENTION=2]2bullymama[/MENTION] it hurts so bad! Fred's teeth are so uneven (like most frenchies teeth are) so I have about 5 bite marks! it's been bleeding still even 24 hours later but I'm just keeping it clean & elevating it when I can.
Thank you for replying I was hoping you would comment I'll read that nothing in life is free training post now!

If you need or want a trainer, in home, i know a great one inn Malvern that will travel to Philly.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

FroxerMom · Jun 28, 2018

lisamarie118 said:
[MENTION=3191]FroxerMom[/MENTION] I was hoping you'd chime in
ahh that is crazy to hear about Sox & Daphne and their role reversal- the same exact thing took place with Henry & Fred! It's as if they switched roles too!
I was trying to attach a video of Fred with that bone an hour before the attack happened. He growled at me and got in a defensive stance when I tried to play with him and his bone. They have never been this way over toys- especially Fred!!
He was very very upset when I got home from the ER. my mom went to the garage and brought in an old cage and put Fred in it and fed them after left. Everyone has been fine since.. I'll feed them in about 20 minutes and try putting them all separate

How are the boys acting today?

Hope your finger isn't hurting too badly!

Did separating while eating help out at all? Lots of good advice on here that will hopefully get you back to a harmonious household.

FroxerMom · Jun 28, 2018

GraciesMom said:
Lisa, we are seeing the trainer once a week. We signed up for a four session package (an initial 90 minute session and three subsequent 45 minute sessions). The cost was $375. In researching various trainers in our area, the cost for a one-on-one session was generally in the range of $80 to $100, but it probably differs by location. We are looking at this as a consultation. We don't anticipate the need to continue this beyond four sessions. The trainer is training us as well as the dog so we know how to handle the situation. We may sign her up for group training sessions later but we need to concentrate fully on the aggression for now. Gracie is young to have this problem and for this reason the veterinary behaviorist believes it is probably genetic. We definitely have an uphill battle.

Oh no. I just saw this post now. That is really frustrating about what Gracie's trainer thinks!

I just got back from touring a prospective new vet office and we were talking about options for me for daycare for Daphne since I don't think she enjoys the company of dogs other than Sox. I am beginning to wonder if I should get a trainer to come work with her or if it's just a given that she doesn't like other dogs and that's that.

GraciesMom · Jun 28, 2018

It was actually the behaviorist who was somewhat negative. She is a specialist vet who completed a residency in behavioral issues so she can prescribe meds as well as offer training advice. The trainer (not a vet) was more positive and we left our first session with her feeling more hopeful. In terms of Daphne, it probably depends on what motivates her dislike of other dogs. If it's a fear based response, training may be helpful. I'm guessing it might be since she initially attacked Sox and now has adjusted and is relaxed around him. But I'm no expert by any means, which I continue to discover every time Gracie throws us a curve ball.

lisamarie118 · Jun 29, 2018

[MENTION=3106]GraciesMom[/MENTION] okay cool! awesome news you and your hubby haven't been attacked

I don't think you will need a trainer beyond what you already have lined up. I hope (and think) Gracie is young enough to still break this habit early on. I have found that CBD oil helps my boys a lot with aggression (nuleaforganics) I have a code from a friend for 15% off if anyone is interested!!
I hung out with a friend of mine last night who actually breeds Frenchies and he's having problems with his own girls with food aggression! His solution has been just to crate feed them in separate rooms.
please keep me updated with Gracie's progress!!

- - - Updated - - -

2bullymama said:
If you need or want a trainer, in home, i know a great one inn Malvern that will travel to Philly.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

yes I would love his/her info. I am right outside of Philly in Delco!

lisamarie118 · Jun 29, 2018

[MENTION=3191]FroxerMom[/MENTION]
The boys were great yesterday and today! I was hosing off the net to clean our pool and my three boys started fighting (they hate the hose) but I separated Fred out of fear he would get more aggressive and then everyone was fine.
I separated them for breakfast and dinner yesterday- Fred went in the dining room with a baby gate across the room and Henry & Giz ate together in the kitchen.
My finger feels extremely numb at the finger tip! It went from throbbing/waking me up in the middle of the night due to pain to loss of feeling. I know I’m gonna lose my nails but it’s just strange. Attached are two photos from 5 mins ago haha.
How did the tour of the new vet go? Ugh yes my frenchies in the past hated other dogs. Everyone would come over to pet them while we were on walks and I’d ask them not to if they had a dog (it was very bad) my vet back then had explained to me that the frenchies grew up in a pack mentality and only accepted other members of their pack. If you can break her aggression now that’s ideal!

2bullymama · Jun 29, 2018

lisamarie118 said:
@FroxerMom
The boys were great yesterday and today! I was hosing off the net to clean our pool and my three boys started fighting (they hate the hose) but I separated Fred out of fear he would get more aggressive and then everyone was fine.
I separated them for breakfast and dinner yesterday- Fred went in the dining room with a baby gate across the room and Henry & Giz ate together in the kitchen.
My finger feels extremely numb at the finger tip! It went from throbbing/waking me up in the middle of the night due to pain to loss of feeling. I know I’m gonna lose my nails but it’s just strange. Attached are two photos from 5 mins ago haha.
How did the tour of the new vet go? Ugh yes my frenchies in the past hated other dogs. Everyone would come over to pet them while we were on walks and I’d ask them not to if they had a dog (it was very bad) my vet back then had explained to me that the frenchies grew up in a pack mentality and only accepted other members of their pack. If you can break her aggression now that’s ideal!

OUCH... holy crap that looks so painful and is probably making simple tasks very difficult. sending trainer info via PM